would drive the boxes down to the Byte Shop in Mountain View or wherever
and get paid, in cash. We had the parts on credit and we got paid in cash. That
was the only way we could do the Apple Is.
Livingston: So you’d keep self-funding?
Wozniak: Yes, we kept self-funding and we probably built up a bank account of
about $10,000. Not a huge amount, but it was enough to move into an office.
Steve really wanted to make a company.
Livingston: Where was the first office?
Wozniak: The first...

strong participant. I wasn’t going to tell other people how to do things. I wasn’t
going to run things ever in my life. I was a non-political person and I was a very
non-forceful person. It dated back to a lot of things that happened during the
Vietnam War. But I just couldn’t run a company.
But then one person said I could be an engineer. That was all I needed to
know, that “OK, I’ll start this company and I’ll just be an engineer.” To this day,
I’m still on the org chart,...

projects, and we weren’t getting out really good stuff really fast like we
had been. Mike Scott came in and told our engineering manager, Tom Whitney
(a guy that I worked for three times in my life: once at Hewlett-Packard’s calculator
division, later on at the Hewlett-Packard 3000 division, and now at Apple),
to take a vacation for one week, and he went around and talked to all the engineers
and found out who was doing stuff and who was slacking off. He pretty
much fired the right ones—that weren’t working. But he should...

Livingston: What about Ron Wayne? Wasn’t he one of the founders?
Wozniak: Yes, but not when we incorporated as a real company. We had two
phases. One was as a partnership with Steve Jobs for the Apple I, and then for
the Apple II, we became a corporation, Apple Computer, Incorporated.
Steve knew Ron at Atari and liked him. Ron was a super-conservative guy. I
didn’t know anything about politics of any sort; I avoided it. But he had read all
these right-wing books like None Dare Call it Treason, and he could rattle...

gold.) So he sold out. It was too risky for him, so he sold out his 10 percent of
Apple to us for a few hundred bucks. Maybe $600, maybe $800, maybe $300—
but a few hundred bucks. And this was even when we had an Apple II designed
and were heading toward future business. He was just scared that something
was going to catch him.
Livingston: Way back then, how did you guys divide the work between you?
Wozniak: We actually never talked about it even once. If there was any engineering
...